It's truly astounding to me Armand that any LePen would come this close to top leadership in France. Unbelievable I've never seen that photo of Reagan with LePen. What an embarrassment.
Lorraine Evanoff: NO. Like in Mozart. "Z" is almost always pronounced Tsett. If there are exceptions, they don't occur to me now. Think of how you say the composer's name.
Isn't it astounding that the French haven't learned more from history as to support Marine Le Pen?!
Or that America might, indeed, elect the neo-fascist?!
Lorraine Evanoff: Reuters refers to the RN Party today as "Rassemblement National", which Reuters translates as "National Rally".
Here is the text:
"Marine Le Pen, President of the French far-right National Rally (Rassemblement National - RN) party parliamentary group, and Jordan Bardella, President of the French far-right National Rally (Rassemblement National - RN) party and head of the RN list for the European elections, attend a political rally during the party's campaign... Purchase Licensing Rights, opens new tab Read more"
If I am wrong in referring to the RN as "Rassemblement National", all my current sources in Reuters, and in the German Press, the FAZ, die Welt, die Tagesschau, die Süddeutsche Zeitung (SZ), they currently refer to Marine Le Pen's Party as ""Rassemblement National."
Also, let me help with clearing up the "Zed" question.
First, in the standard dictionaries, "Wahrig" or "Duden", it is like you said. The standard "Duden" would phonetically spell the letter "Z" as "Zed".
So, you are right.
And a German reading, "Zed", pronounces it "TSETT". Again, think of the name, "Mozart". And final "D" in German is pronounced "T".
Armando does not say how it is pronounced in French. Only in German. Spelled phonetically "Zed," exactly as you say, but the native from Stuttgart, Augsburg, Heidelberg, or even Berlin would read "Zed" as "Tsett".
Yes I lived there for 7 years when the elder was running the party.
I think we’re saying the same thing.
The front national as I knew it is the same as national rally.
I was just asking about the pronunciation of FAZ. To me, saying those letters is pronounced eff ah zed. But maybe as you said it’s a German expression they’ve adapted.
Lorraine Evanoff: First, I know from reading your work that you are deeply Francophone and I learn a lot about the beautiful, wondrous culture of France from you.
OK.
In this setting:
"Illustrations dans des journaux et des magazines, comme le Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) et Brigitte . . . "
I feel sure, in France, one would say FAZ something like, "Eff-Ah-Zed."
Pronounced the French way of saying the phonetic-alphabetic letters.
In German, the standard dictionaries, say the "Duden," would do the phonetic recitation of the letters, "FAZ" like, "Eff-Ah-Zed."
Period.
Period. And of story.
Now, remember "Mozart." The "z" is ALWAYS (no exceptions I am aware of, but there are bound to be a few, maybe foreign import words), the German would SEE "z", would phonetically write it "Zed" -- like the British and the French.
So, if the matter stopped there, the discussion would end.
Now ask the Stuttgarter, the Augsburger, the Frankfurter, the Berliner, the Hamburger, the Leipziger to pronounce, "FAZ", and her lips will inevitably intone, "Eff-Ah-Tsett, selbstverständlich" (FAZ, of course).
It is just how the German language itself pronounces. Since I am German speaking, I use the native pronunciation for German words.
Since I don't speak French, I do not interpret here French pronunciations.
I don't really ever understand saying "we" though. Most of us recognize the dangers. These haters know how to target ignorance and position themselves into power. I don't include us in that.
Gloria Horton-Young -- She who STIRS the S-T-O-R-M-!! -- and Lorraine Evanoff:
You both agree in substance.
That little word "we".
"She who STIRS the S-T-O-R-M-!!" means the historical repetitions that Armando himself has experienced in his life. More on that in a minute. Maybe even in a full post.
Not so by the way: You here have probably stirred me to another post, because you both raise such good points.
In November 1932, the results looked grim for the "browns", the National Socialists.
But the late Weimar Crisis was so chaotic, yet another parliamentary election took place in March 1933, where the NSDAP (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei -- shortened to Nazi) gained an astounding 10 points for almost 43% of the vote, which by European -- specifically German -- standards showed astounding growth.
Adolf Hitler determined he would be Dictator on the first day.
(Have we heard this one recently?!)
France and the Netherlands suffered horrors under the armed occupation through the Third Reich.
So, why do the Netherlands and France have strong Nationalist parties?!
Don't they LEARN?!
That is the spirit spoken by "She who STIRS the S-T-O-R-M-!!"
They suffered under the occupation by the Third Reich and they vote for Nationalist, right-wing, racist parties to the tune of circa 30% of the vote.
How could France and the Netherlands NOT have learned from the occupation how horrendous Nationalist, racist movements are.
Now, let's turn to America.
NONE of us want Jim Crow. NONE of us.
In my 76-years, I have seen a powerful arc of liberty and justice and hope proceed from the one, great moral movement of my time, that inspires me 60 years later: The Civil Rights Movement.
Dr. Martin Luther King took teachings from Mahatma Gandhi, who in turn learned them directly from Lev Tolstoy: Nonviolence.
Vivid to me are the Birmingham Church bombing killing four beautiful, hopeful girls, who till then had their whole futures ahead of them with all the gifts that Mother Nature gives to young girls. Brutally murdered by the ugly face of racism.
The Selma march showed the nation intellectual and peaceful leaders, walking the bridge arm-in-arm, trying to bring peace, justice, and equality -- which are supposed to be our core values from the Declaration of Independence -- who were met with ignorant, angry, white-nationalist racists on the other side of the bridge, armed with clubs, who cracked skulls.
And there were many arrests.
Oh, the ones arrested were not the club-wielding brutes.
The brutes arrested the beautiful peace-marchers.
Now, sixty years later, about thirty percent of Americans -- in Europe such a group would be decisive in elections, in America they are called the GOP CORE -- THIRTY PERCENT or so are Fundamentalist, Trump-Cultists, who in every way want a return to the values of Jim Crow, no matter what their rhetoric.
It translates into a right-wing Supreme Court striking down affirmative action.
A right-wing Supreme Court striking down the dignity and safety of women in so many ways, spearheaded and symbolized by overturning 50-years of rights through the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
With state legislatures going to extremes to strip women and girls of dignity by interference with their MEDICAL CARE!
How can so many Americans NOT LEARN FROM THE PAST.
What "She who stirs the storm" means when she says, "We never learn from the past" is NOT:
"Armando doesn't learn from the Past."
Is NOT:
"Lorraine Evanoff doesn't learn from the Past."
Is NOT:
"We who believe in core values of a free society of ordered liberty (a phrase of Benjamin Cardozo) -- we don't learn from the past."
Clearly what "She who stirs the storm" means with, "We never learn from the past" is this:
"America's experience with Jim Crow and the great moral movement of our time: The Civil Rights Movement -- the numbers of right-wing Nationalist racists should be limited to a small percentage of the American fringe. How, in face of the inspiring history of the Civil Rights Movement overcoming Jim Crow, how on earth do we have a Country that looks ready to put a raging racist in the White House. Are they not capable of learning from history?!"
To Gloria Horton-Young: Personally, I never feel a need to explain you! Please know that.
Lorraine Evanoff and Gloria Horton-Young: You are both writers who deeply inspire me.
Both of you are S-T-R-O-N-G and I am moved by your reasoning, both of you.
You, with this short exchange, have moved me seriously to form in my mind a new post on this platform.
But I would still contend we have learned from the past. At least the USA saw what happened Nov 8, 2016 and never let it go further. The GOP have destroyed themselves as democrats have out performed ever since.
I’m afraid of these terms because they do great harm and make people feel demoralize, which perpetuates repeating the bad parts.
That’s part of their playbook to sow despair.
It’s important to use fighting words and always push back on the rhetoric.
For example, Putin intentionally destabilized Europe abetting Assad’s genocide in Syria and mass exodus causing rampant racism that helped the right win elections and Brexit, etc. that was no accident. It is ongoing active measures.
The US has fought and won against the hateful racism that has boldly emerged.
Lorraine Evanoff: Don't ever lose the fighting spirit.
You and Gloria Horton-Young are not using the term "we" univocally.
Gloria Horton-Young is on the right side and she is part of my own inspiration.
Your optimism and fight will need to spread and prevail in the Party, because many are disillusioned and despairing after the Debate.
The only chance to beat the neo-Fascist is to keep up a spirit of fight like YOURS.
Sometimes it must need optimism, or at least hope, to fight.
I am an old, jaded, cynical lawyer, with no hope, no illusions, who considers the race in November lost, but . . .
Who will fight like hell and ADVOCATE in YOUR spirit, because: (1) It is the only chance to win; and (2) It is the RIGHT thing to do. America and the West are WORTH it.
I'll put my last ounce of strength in a fight to save us from neo-Fascism.
But in the Debate, I saw someone who did not believe the danger in his heart and who did not have the fight
We have a RIGHT that those at the top of our party do their job: TO LEAD!
Gloria Horton-Young -- She who stirs the storm! I rather admire Pierrette Lalanne and her sense of humor.
I think she had the last word on the alimony thing and earning her keep as a housemaid!
Pierrette Lalanne stirred the storm in the Le Pen household.
What backward values when the Daughter is offended by the Mom's innocent humor, in direct response to a very public insult, where Mom answers in a way that definitively gave her the last word!
The anti-Semitism must run deep in France for Marine Le Pen to do so well in the election.
What a story, Armand!
Diane K24: The main reason I shared the story was I found Pierrette Lalanne to be likable and I really like that she got the last word.
Yes, she did!
It's truly astounding to me Armand that any LePen would come this close to top leadership in France. Unbelievable I've never seen that photo of Reagan with LePen. What an embarrassment.
BTW, wouldn't FAZ be pronounced Eff Ah Zed?
Lorraine Evanoff: NO. Like in Mozart. "Z" is almost always pronounced Tsett. If there are exceptions, they don't occur to me now. Think of how you say the composer's name.
Isn't it astounding that the French haven't learned more from history as to support Marine Le Pen?!
Or that America might, indeed, elect the neo-fascist?!
Thanks!
I just don't understand the zett in French. It's still the Front National, but I'm not getting the FAZ.
Anyway, she's whitewashing the FN. Even removing her father's name from the history. But they are still xenophobic white nationalist.
Lorraine Evanoff: Reuters refers to the RN Party today as "Rassemblement National", which Reuters translates as "National Rally".
Here is the text:
"Marine Le Pen, President of the French far-right National Rally (Rassemblement National - RN) party parliamentary group, and Jordan Bardella, President of the French far-right National Rally (Rassemblement National - RN) party and head of the RN list for the European elections, attend a political rally during the party's campaign... Purchase Licensing Rights, opens new tab Read more"
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/frances-far-right-rn-hopes-run-government-after-snap-ballot-lawmaker-says-2024-06-13/
If I am wrong in referring to the RN as "Rassemblement National", all my current sources in Reuters, and in the German Press, the FAZ, die Welt, die Tagesschau, die Süddeutsche Zeitung (SZ), they currently refer to Marine Le Pen's Party as ""Rassemblement National."
Also, let me help with clearing up the "Zed" question.
First, in the standard dictionaries, "Wahrig" or "Duden", it is like you said. The standard "Duden" would phonetically spell the letter "Z" as "Zed".
So, you are right.
And a German reading, "Zed", pronounces it "TSETT". Again, think of the name, "Mozart". And final "D" in German is pronounced "T".
Armando does not say how it is pronounced in French. Only in German. Spelled phonetically "Zed," exactly as you say, but the native from Stuttgart, Augsburg, Heidelberg, or even Berlin would read "Zed" as "Tsett".
Yes I lived there for 7 years when the elder was running the party.
I think we’re saying the same thing.
The front national as I knew it is the same as national rally.
I was just asking about the pronunciation of FAZ. To me, saying those letters is pronounced eff ah zed. But maybe as you said it’s a German expression they’ve adapted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rally
Lorraine Evanoff: First, I know from reading your work that you are deeply Francophone and I learn a lot about the beautiful, wondrous culture of France from you.
OK.
In this setting:
"Illustrations dans des journaux et des magazines, comme le Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) et Brigitte . . . "
I feel sure, in France, one would say FAZ something like, "Eff-Ah-Zed."
Pronounced the French way of saying the phonetic-alphabetic letters.
In German, the standard dictionaries, say the "Duden," would do the phonetic recitation of the letters, "FAZ" like, "Eff-Ah-Zed."
Period.
Period. And of story.
Now, remember "Mozart." The "z" is ALWAYS (no exceptions I am aware of, but there are bound to be a few, maybe foreign import words), the German would SEE "z", would phonetically write it "Zed" -- like the British and the French.
So, if the matter stopped there, the discussion would end.
Now ask the Stuttgarter, the Augsburger, the Frankfurter, the Berliner, the Hamburger, the Leipziger to pronounce, "FAZ", and her lips will inevitably intone, "Eff-Ah-Tsett, selbstverständlich" (FAZ, of course).
It is just how the German language itself pronounces. Since I am German speaking, I use the native pronunciation for German words.
Since I don't speak French, I do not interpret here French pronunciations.
We never learn from the past.
I don't really ever understand saying "we" though. Most of us recognize the dangers. These haters know how to target ignorance and position themselves into power. I don't include us in that.
Gloria Horton-Young -- She who STIRS the S-T-O-R-M-!! -- and Lorraine Evanoff:
You both agree in substance.
That little word "we".
"She who STIRS the S-T-O-R-M-!!" means the historical repetitions that Armando himself has experienced in his life. More on that in a minute. Maybe even in a full post.
Not so by the way: You here have probably stirred me to another post, because you both raise such good points.
In November 1932, the results looked grim for the "browns", the National Socialists.
But the late Weimar Crisis was so chaotic, yet another parliamentary election took place in March 1933, where the NSDAP (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei -- shortened to Nazi) gained an astounding 10 points for almost 43% of the vote, which by European -- specifically German -- standards showed astounding growth.
Adolf Hitler determined he would be Dictator on the first day.
(Have we heard this one recently?!)
France and the Netherlands suffered horrors under the armed occupation through the Third Reich.
So, why do the Netherlands and France have strong Nationalist parties?!
Don't they LEARN?!
That is the spirit spoken by "She who STIRS the S-T-O-R-M-!!"
They suffered under the occupation by the Third Reich and they vote for Nationalist, right-wing, racist parties to the tune of circa 30% of the vote.
How could France and the Netherlands NOT have learned from the occupation how horrendous Nationalist, racist movements are.
Now, let's turn to America.
NONE of us want Jim Crow. NONE of us.
In my 76-years, I have seen a powerful arc of liberty and justice and hope proceed from the one, great moral movement of my time, that inspires me 60 years later: The Civil Rights Movement.
Dr. Martin Luther King took teachings from Mahatma Gandhi, who in turn learned them directly from Lev Tolstoy: Nonviolence.
Vivid to me are the Birmingham Church bombing killing four beautiful, hopeful girls, who till then had their whole futures ahead of them with all the gifts that Mother Nature gives to young girls. Brutally murdered by the ugly face of racism.
The Selma march showed the nation intellectual and peaceful leaders, walking the bridge arm-in-arm, trying to bring peace, justice, and equality -- which are supposed to be our core values from the Declaration of Independence -- who were met with ignorant, angry, white-nationalist racists on the other side of the bridge, armed with clubs, who cracked skulls.
And there were many arrests.
Oh, the ones arrested were not the club-wielding brutes.
The brutes arrested the beautiful peace-marchers.
Now, sixty years later, about thirty percent of Americans -- in Europe such a group would be decisive in elections, in America they are called the GOP CORE -- THIRTY PERCENT or so are Fundamentalist, Trump-Cultists, who in every way want a return to the values of Jim Crow, no matter what their rhetoric.
It translates into a right-wing Supreme Court striking down affirmative action.
A right-wing Supreme Court striking down the dignity and safety of women in so many ways, spearheaded and symbolized by overturning 50-years of rights through the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
With state legislatures going to extremes to strip women and girls of dignity by interference with their MEDICAL CARE!
How can so many Americans NOT LEARN FROM THE PAST.
What "She who stirs the storm" means when she says, "We never learn from the past" is NOT:
"Armando doesn't learn from the Past."
Is NOT:
"Lorraine Evanoff doesn't learn from the Past."
Is NOT:
"We who believe in core values of a free society of ordered liberty (a phrase of Benjamin Cardozo) -- we don't learn from the past."
Clearly what "She who stirs the storm" means with, "We never learn from the past" is this:
"America's experience with Jim Crow and the great moral movement of our time: The Civil Rights Movement -- the numbers of right-wing Nationalist racists should be limited to a small percentage of the American fringe. How, in face of the inspiring history of the Civil Rights Movement overcoming Jim Crow, how on earth do we have a Country that looks ready to put a raging racist in the White House. Are they not capable of learning from history?!"
To Gloria Horton-Young: Personally, I never feel a need to explain you! Please know that.
Lorraine Evanoff and Gloria Horton-Young: You are both writers who deeply inspire me.
Both of you are S-T-R-O-N-G and I am moved by your reasoning, both of you.
You, with this short exchange, have moved me seriously to form in my mind a new post on this platform.
THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR SHARING!
Armando, I appreciate your detailed replies.
But I would still contend we have learned from the past. At least the USA saw what happened Nov 8, 2016 and never let it go further. The GOP have destroyed themselves as democrats have out performed ever since.
I’m afraid of these terms because they do great harm and make people feel demoralize, which perpetuates repeating the bad parts.
That’s part of their playbook to sow despair.
It’s important to use fighting words and always push back on the rhetoric.
For example, Putin intentionally destabilized Europe abetting Assad’s genocide in Syria and mass exodus causing rampant racism that helped the right win elections and Brexit, etc. that was no accident. It is ongoing active measures.
The US has fought and won against the hateful racism that has boldly emerged.
Anyway that’s what I mean by “we”.
Lorraine Evanoff: Don't ever lose the fighting spirit.
You and Gloria Horton-Young are not using the term "we" univocally.
Gloria Horton-Young is on the right side and she is part of my own inspiration.
Your optimism and fight will need to spread and prevail in the Party, because many are disillusioned and despairing after the Debate.
The only chance to beat the neo-Fascist is to keep up a spirit of fight like YOURS.
Sometimes it must need optimism, or at least hope, to fight.
I am an old, jaded, cynical lawyer, with no hope, no illusions, who considers the race in November lost, but . . .
Who will fight like hell and ADVOCATE in YOUR spirit, because: (1) It is the only chance to win; and (2) It is the RIGHT thing to do. America and the West are WORTH it.
I'll put my last ounce of strength in a fight to save us from neo-Fascism.
But in the Debate, I saw someone who did not believe the danger in his heart and who did not have the fight
We have a RIGHT that those at the top of our party do their job: TO LEAD!
Unbelievable!!
Gloria Horton-Young -- She who stirs the storm! I rather admire Pierrette Lalanne and her sense of humor.
I think she had the last word on the alimony thing and earning her keep as a housemaid!
Pierrette Lalanne stirred the storm in the Le Pen household.
What backward values when the Daughter is offended by the Mom's innocent humor, in direct response to a very public insult, where Mom answers in a way that definitively gave her the last word!
The anti-Semitism must run deep in France for Marine Le Pen to do so well in the election.
It seems hate and fear runs deep in many places in the world.
I love Pierette! ❤️❤️
Thanks for this...very informative. Much I did not until now. ✌️
Susan Niemann: As in almost everything in my life, the Love-of-My-Life, Nancy, whom I have loved for 53-years, inspired me.
Nancy was reading some of the history, and it was so hilarious, I had to reach in myself.
I always learn from you. Thank you.
Thanks for the information.